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REDSFAN

Articles Posted: 33  Links Seeded: 5643
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When Did the GOP Lose Touch With Reality? -- by David Frum

Seeded on Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:44 AM EST
Read ArticleArticle Source: New York Magazine
politics, economy, taxes, tea-party-republicans, david-frum, rigiht-wing-extremism
Seeded by redsfan
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Some of my Republican friends ask if I’ve gone crazy..I say: Look in the mirror..I’ve been a Republican all my adult life..I have worked on the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal, at Forbes magazine, at the Manhattan and American Enterprise Institutes, as a speechwriter in the George W. Bush administration. I believe in free markets, low taxes, reasonable regulation, and limited government. I voted for John ­McCain in 2008, and I have strongly criticized the major policy decisions of the Obama administration. But as I contemplate my party and my movement in 2011, I see things I simply cannot support....

I can’t shrug off this flight from reality and responsibility as somebody else’s problem. I belonged to this movement; I helped to make the mess. People may very well say: Hey, wait a minute, didn’t you work in the George W. Bush administration that disappointed so many people in so many ways? What qualifies you to dispense advice to anybody else?

Fair question. I am haunted by the Bush experience, although it seems almost presumptuous for someone who played such a minor role to feel so much unease. The people who made the big decisions certainly seem to sleep well enough. Yet there is also the chance for something positive to come out of it all. True, some of my colleagues emerged from those years eager to revenge themselves and escalate political conflict: “They send one of ours to the hospital, we send two of theirs to the morgue.” I came out thinking, I want no more part of this cycle of revenge. For the past half-dozen years, I have been arguing that we conservatives need to follow a different course. And it is this argument that has led so many of my friends to demand, sometimes bemusedly, sometimes angrily, “What the hell happened to you?” I could fire the same question back: “Never mind me—what happened to you?”

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  • Public Discussion (290)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 4
redsfan

In the throes of the worst economic crisis since the Depression, Republican politicians demand massive budget cuts and shrug off the concerns of the unemployed. In the face of evidence of dwindling upward mobility and long-stagnating middle-class wages, my party’s economic ideas sometimes seem to have shrunk to just one: more tax cuts for the very highest earners.

I don't agree with many of the things that Frum tosses off as "fact" in this article, but to me, it's remarkable that he is at least recognizing that the modern-day Republican Party has gone off the deep end and is not functioning rationally anymore.

  • 81 votes
#1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:47 AM EST
ShyoneeExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

Anyone who thinks they are part of either party while getting RAPED is a total idiot. I mean total idiot.

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:29 AM EST
Naughtia

nice bolding shyonee, is this part of the false dichotomy that says both parties are the same?

Lets see the Dems gave the unemployed UE extensions like crazy.. which the right fought

the dems gave us finacial consumer protections which the right fought.

the dems increased the min wage which the right fought.

the dems made sure banks cant let our cc go into overdraft, which the right fought.

the dems gave us health reform which the right fought.

the dems took the student loan welfare away from the bank which the right fought.

They arent the best party for the 99% but they are hardly republicans.

  • 68 votes
#1.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:00 PM EST
WoodieRae-3499404

And until something better comes along, I'll have to side with the side that supports the majority.

That IS what a Democracy is, isn't it?

  • 29 votes
#1.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:03 PM EST
Phill W

That is what a Democracy is.

Thank God we are not a mob-rule Democracy. We are a Republic that protects everyone's Liberty from the government. (or at least we used to be)

  • 14 votes
#1.4 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:14 PM EST
larry ling

David Frum is one of my favorite Conservatives and it's nice to see that all of them aren't so in denial of reality.

  • 25 votes
#1.5 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:14 PM EST
Perception Dominates Reality

Which specific 'facts' that Frum wrote do you disagree with??

  • 3 votes
#1.6 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:34 PM EST
Zoolopolis

Wow, he's acting like a true conservative.

A patrician of Roman Republic. Protector of republic's values. Prudence, frugality, restraint.

A Cicero.

GOP has descended into madness of Empire. Caligula and Nero have nothing on them.

  • 44 votes
#1.7 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:56 PM EST
Jumpmaster82

Great seed Redsfan,

This is the most honesty I've heard from a Republican in a long time.

Signed

Ex Republican

  • 29 votes
#1.8 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:14 PM EST
DultibassDeleted
RaisedByWolves

Zoo, recall that Cicero ended up on the wrong side of Julius, and not because the Republic had survived Cataline, but rather that he was protected his cushy way of life.

As to Mr. Frum: David, David, David: you helped this along with your stirring speeches for the Shrub, who was an idiot and had all that talking to the magic sky god as his credentials to the family values/moral majority idiots. You know, the unwashed, ill-educated base that the right just loves.

  • 17 votes
#1.10 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:29 PM EST
Smith Cassidy

Here's the part Republican's need to memorize:

Conservatives have been driven to these fevered anxieties as much by their own trauma as by external events. In the aughts, Republicans held more power for longer than at any time since the twenties, yet the result was the weakest and least broadly shared economic expansion since World War II, followed by an economic crash and prolonged slump.

Also, the Shyonee re-reg troll has apparently been banned.

  • 25 votes
#1.11 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:33 PM EST
Mike-584822

As long as Norquist and the Republicans are bed buddies we can expect stalemate in Washington to be the order of business.

  • 14 votes
#1.12 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:59 PM EST
Reliant

Conservatives have been driven to these fevered anxieties as much by their own trauma as by external events. In the aughts, Republicans held more power for longer than at any time since the twenties, yet the result was the weakest and least broadly shared economic expansion since World War II, followed by an economic crash and prolonged slump.

David Frum is not afraid to speak the truth. His kind of republicanism is what I miss from the party. I too have been a life long republican, but I can no longer find myself a place in the party.

  • 19 votes
#1.13 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:41 PM EST
Jake319

Here something that bothers me about all politics. The solution is always to get rid of one certain politician or political party and all our problems are solved.

This summer in Egypt that was the solution. Get rid of mubarick and freedom is ours, right..

Last night the Egypt' military killed 33 protestors . The people are back out in the street tonite.

My point is power is not concentrated in one person. The powers are in the hands of many. Just as the Egyptian believed that they controlled their government after Mubarick stepped down. When all along the military was the representative of the concentration of power.

The republicans , who I believe represent the concentration of power in our country say that if Obama was not president things would be fine.

Im not sure what the answer would be. However those who preach that the elimination of a single party or person, must surly be regarded as a threat.

  • 12 votes
#1.14 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:45 PM EST
redsfan

His kind of republicanism is what I miss from the party.

I agree...and I cannot believe the hate and anger spewing at Frum all over the internet today for daring to speak out about this truth. Some of the conservative sites have put his article up, and their reader's comments are kinda scary! Frum better not walk any dark alleys in the near future...threats are being made!

  • 22 votes
#1.15 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:50 PM EST
MJL-3

When Did the GOP Lose Touch With Reality

At birth, they were born that way

  • 14 votes
#1.16 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:39 PM EST
GaryColumbus

I wasn't aware that Republicans have ever had a sense of reality! Fair and balanced to a Republican is FOXNews for Pete's sake. The Depression and every Recession in the history of our country has been the result of a selfish Republican political philosophy. They are, as we speak, thwarting every attempt to get the economy off the ground and running again. They have always been against equal rights for all which is nothing more or less than pure bigotry. Corporate campaign financing, union busting, voter suppression and gerry-mandering out the a$$ are prime examples of their lack of an equal playing field and the bigotry they emit toward everything that isn't sanctioned by the GOP. Trickle down Reaganomics has been nothing but a disastrous ponzi scheme. They voted for an idiot named Bush that never had a successful business venture or idea in his life. Self-righteously defacing all religious perception by their own actions. I'd need to be raging drunk before the thought of screwing one of them! Kind of like the fugly chick at the bar that starts looking better towards closing time.

  • 11 votes
#1.17 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:41 PM EST
Jensen-576947

It is all a matter of semantics and syntax; that being said, it is way more probable the Planet had enough of the Right Wing illusionists, and left all the "Lost in Space Cadets" to figure out "Up from Down; Right from Left."

  • 4 votes
#1.18 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:14 PM EST
canary-in-the-coal-mine

about 1980 is my closest guess. and of course, NOW they are so far detached from reality as to be on their own PLANET

  • 10 votes
#1.19 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:22 PM EST
Teurses

Where do they get it, hmmm, that's an interesting question.
The insanity, they get that for a discount at the local jesus mega meetings, fleecings and baptisms. The stupid they get from their parents but if they are born with half a brain to much to swallow the crap, sometimes they send those few, to foxes social conjob U.

The problem with America is the republican party of god.

  • 8 votes
#1.20 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:47 PM EST
Dave from Iowa

I agree with canary....1980 I said back then; 'Oh if we could only read the Right's minds, it would scare the hell out of us.' I NEVER thought a day would come that they were speaking those thoughts out loud and proud.

Once here on the 'Vine a seed challenged to google any financial chart. Set the parameters to post WW2 1945 or so and current date. You will see a dramatic change in the chart about 1980; positive tracking if rich and negative if not. Try it. While not financial here's one to get you started: http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/l/bl_party_division_2.htm

  • 5 votes
#1.21 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:00 PM EST
dEd Grimley

The GOP has been going crazier and crazier since Nixon. Nixon at least made a couple of positive strides.

Reagan was insane, and I'm sorry, the man isn't the Jesus of the Republican party. His policies had a short term benefit, and long term negative effects. Much like the cocaine that was so prevalent in his days.

Bush 1 was semi-benign.

Bush 2 was a horror story, but when I see those tshirts that say, "Miss Me Yet?", I've got to answer that I do.

Not because of Obama, but because the Republican party has gone to borderline, and I do mean RIGHT ON THE EDGE, fascist since he's been gone. The current Republican party is utterly insane. They claim to be pro-life in the same breath that they cheer executions and tell people who are dying in a hospital to die. How can you pretend to be in favor of the life of a fetus, which isn't even a person yet, and then when a person IS a person, you could care less whether they live or die?

  • 6 votes
#1.22 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:05 PM EST
VetteLover

When Did the GOP Lose Touch With Reality?

Really???? It’s just the GOP who has lost Reality?? The U.S. sovereign Debt Day is coming real real soon!! I don't see one politician on the Democratic side including OBAMA himself putting forward any plan on how to manage our VERY REAL REALITY of DEFAULT. Do you think the private bankers can just continue to print money at the velocity they are currently pushing into the system? This phantom money can just continue to be mouse clicked around the world??

There seems to be some kind of denial of universal blindness to what is happening with our fiat currency and the currencies abroad. The Central Bankers have decimated the world and the only politician I see speaking out against them is old man Ron Paul. That is pretty sad!!

The bankers are not your friend and not your pal. Obama is ENCIRCLED with central bankers and their corporate cronies. Hold him responsible and to the same standards you hold the GOP too!

  • 1 vote
#1.23 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:30 PM EST
Adler315

On the day of the House vote that ensured the enactment of health-care reform, I wrote a blog post saying all this and calling for some accountability for those who had led the GOP to this disaster. For my trouble, I was denounced the next day by my former colleagues at The Wall Street Journal as a turncoat. Three days after that, I was dismissed from the American Enterprise Institute. I'm not a solitary case: In 2005, the economist Bruce Bartlett, a main legislative author of the Kemp-Roth tax cut, was fired from a think tank in Dallas for too loudly denouncing the George W. Bush administration's record, and I could tell equivalent stories about other major conservative think tanks as well.

I believe that the excerpt above is truly the crux of the whole problem. Reality is in a constant state of flux, and the survival of any organism or of any political or social entity demands—unreservedly—a phenomenal sense of total awareness, a preternaturally heightened awareness that is enhanced by a keen sensitivity to subtle shifts in patterns and currents as well as to overt threats; it requires acute vision and alertness, and the innate ability and the willingness to adapt—above all else, first and foremost, the willingness to adapt.

The GOP, the modern conservative bloc—the word 'movement' no longer applies—has become an artifact of a bygone era, a monument to the mentality of the thundering herd, the fossilized remains of a mastodon.

  • 6 votes
#1.24 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:31 PM EST
Todd-511903

The only way to bring the GOP back to reality is by sending them to defeat at the ballot box next year in all races (President, Congress, Governor, etc.). Send them a message that obstruction, inflexibility, insanity, and party before country have no place in government. They will be forced to reinvent themselves if they want to remain relevant. They will have to find candidates who are in-touch with the 99%.

  • 6 votes
#1.25 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:00 AM EST
Walt42

As long as righties keep listening/watching Fox and Rush, there is no 'bringing the GOP back to reality' !!! They all drink the same kool aid.

What I think is a major problem with the rank and file Republicans today: the have leased their thinking capacity to news media which see rabble-rousing as financially rewarding. Of course, thinking has really never been a significant property of the GOP.

  • 5 votes
#1.26 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:01 AM EST
JayTee-3231157

Todd

The only way to bring the GOP back to reality is by sending them to defeat at the ballot box next year in all races

Hey, it didn't work for the GOP bringing the Democrats back to reality in the 2010 election...not even Pelosi seems to have gotten the message, even though she got fired as speaker.

This year, the Virginia State election sent a message to the Democrats, as all 52 GOP candidates WON, and Virginia is more GOP than since the Civil war.

Talk about the ability to "Get back to Reality"......Obama and friends are insulated from the Reality of the American political landscape.

    #1.27 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:15 AM EST
    Judy Ostrom

    Personally...I hold every single politician that is currently in office responsible for the mess in this country. We are the laughing stock of the world! Very sad!

    • 3 votes
    #1.28 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:31 AM EST
    Reply
    jwc2blue

    Every economist worthy of the title agrees that this is the absolute worst time for big cuts.

    On a common sense level, how can anyone with a brain look at the programs that taxpayers pay into as "entitlements" while pushing to give ever larger breaks to those who don't need them?

    The record disparity in income levels in America has not been caused by "laziness" from the Middle and Working class, it's a result of escalating corporate greed.

    • 41 votes
    #2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:05 AM EST
    ShyoneeDeleted
    jwc2blue

    *sniff*

    I smell troll. Reported as probable re-reg.

    • 29 votes
    #2.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 AM EST
    ShyoneeDeleted
    QuiteContrary-1278233

    I know right, jwc2blue, wasn't it just last week that all Dem's were over-educated-out-of-work-freeloading-entitlement-seeking-deadbeats? I simply cannot keep up with the rabid, 360 GOP rhetoric these days, I guess I'm just not a Faux-bot!

    • 23 votes
    #2.4 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:46 AM EST
    ShyoneeDeleted
    MAXX-320489

    shyonee. How did the dems give everything to wall street? the republicans(the self proclaimed party of deregulation) bent over for wall street over the last 30 years far,far, FAR MORE than any dems did . revise history much?

    • 26 votes
    #2.6 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:54 AM EST
    ShyoneeExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

    yeah, listen to you. My team in which you aren't didn't bend over for Wall-street as much. How stupid does that sound? Real stupid

      #2.7 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:03 PM EST
      WoodieRae-3499404

      DNFTT

      • 17 votes
      #2.8 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:04 PM EST
      Naughtia

      ahhh the joys of a rabid rereg.

      Lets see the dems gave us the consumer finacial protection agency, which wallstreet was against.

      teh dems are trying to give us the dodd frank rule which wallstreet is against.

      the dems took student loans away from wallstreet which wallstreet was against.

      the dems tried to give us eliz warren which wallstreet was against.

      and to totally pwn this rereg out of the water to the point that no one with a sliver of a brain could agree with him.

      Leaked Memo Reveals Wall Street Plot To Undermine OWS..and the dems and obama

      I linked to the memo itself, so no crying liberal.(but you can cry PDF)

      Notice how their biggest fear is the GOP will stop defending wallstreet.

      Notice how they want to engage the GOP/TP.

      Look at the second page, look at whose seats they are targeting.. see a single solitary R? I DONT.

      SHYONEE FROM THE HORSES OWN MOUTH, WALLSTREET PREFERS REPUBLICANS AND FEELS THREATENED BY DEMS

      • 22 votes
      #2.9 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:07 PM EST
      ShyoneeDeleted
      Phill W

      Bill Clinton got rid of Glass–Steagall that got us in this financial mess in the first place.

        #2.11 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:17 PM EST
        redsfan

        Everyone...please do not respond to Shyonee's offensive comments and maybe he/she/it will go away. Thanks.

        • 23 votes
        #2.12 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:26 PM EST
        redsfan

        Phill W - on Glass Steagall...although Clinton did sign the repeal bill into law (which I wish he hadn't), please tell the whole story...

        The bill that ultimately "repealed" the Act was brought up in the Senate by Phil Gramm (R-Texas) and in the House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa) in 1999. The bills were passed by a Republican majority, basically following party lines by a 54–44 vote in the Senate[15]

        • 34 votes
        #2.13 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:30 PM EST
        Phill W

        What about the presidential veto power?

        The fact is BOTH parties suck.

        You can find examples where both have screwed up. If they would follow their constitutional oath the country would be a lot better off right now.

        The purpose of the Constitution is to protect us from government.

        Its a true statement that "government is not the answer, its the problem."

        Minimum government=maximum freedom.

        The founding fathers knew it, the trash in government today don't.

        • 2 votes
        #2.14 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:36 PM EST
        gillanator

        Sniff...Think I smell another re-reg.

        • 14 votes
        #2.15 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:39 PM EST
        JackOL-1666973

        Already reported.

        • 12 votes
        #2.16 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:39 PM EST
        redsfan

        Both parties only "suck" because both parties are dependent on big money to get elected to ANYTHING. The only way to change what's done in Washington is to make our elected leaders NOT dependent on big money to get elected. We need major campaign finance reform or the big money people will always have the advantage.

        • 22 votes
        #2.17 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:46 PM EST
        Phill W

        I agree!

        Why pay million for a job that only pays a few hundred thou?

        Follow the money.

        theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/12-facts-about-money-and-congress-that-are-so-outrageous-that-it-is-hard-to-believe-that-they-are-actually-true

        endoftheamericandream.com/archives/10-mind-blowing-facts-which-show-how-members-of-congress-and-federal-employees-are-living-the-high-life-at-our-expense

        endoftheamericandream.com/archives/after-all-of-the-crazy-insider-trading-that-now-has-been-revealed-how-can-the-american-people-ever-trust-congress-again

        • 1 vote
        #2.18 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:51 PM EST
        redsfan

        So let's fight hard for major campaign finance reform instead of just saying "both parties do it" or "government is corrupt". Instead of just electing new people who are then subject to the same big money requirements, let's acknowledge the cause of the problems and work to fix it!

        • 19 votes
        #2.19 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:35 PM EST
        goldpointe

        Yes, Clinton did compromise a lot with Republicans to get other things passed. Democrats have gone along to get along for too long. When the real story of the Deficit Committee comes out, I think you will see that Dems compromised a lot and got nothing in return. It is time for them to stand up for the American people.

        Unfortunately, this would mean that their real masters, the big corporations will donate less. I agree, redsfan about campaign finance reform. It is time for a Constitutional amendment taking both corporations and unions out of the campaign finance business and put it back into the hands of real people.

        • 10 votes
        #2.20 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:18 PM EST
        rls8r

        What about the presidential veto power?

        The final version of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act passed the House by a vote of 362-57 and the Senate by a vote of 90-8. This made the bill veto proof.

        • 19 votes
        #2.21 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:34 PM EST
        Dennis in WA

        Minimum government=maximum freedom.

        The founding fathers knew it, the trash in government today don't.

        I must strongly disagree with your premise regarding the Founding Fathers and actual history. In fact, our present Constitution is the second attempt at coming up with a national government form, because the Articles of Confederation were almost immediately found to be far too weak to deal with the (far less complex) issues of the day.

        The Constitution provided for a much stronger national government, because the alternative of too little government was found to be a failure. The Constitution also provides enormous flexibility for the citizens of this country, at any given time, to decide democratically for themselves what clauses such as "General Welfare" for example may mean to them.

        A reasonably strong government is essential to protect the freedom of individuals vis a vis the powerful - otherwise you have "strongman" rule such as in so many of histories failed nations.

        I would argue that today our government is not strong enough in terms of its protection of individuals from the wealthy and powerful ("he who has the gold makes the rules"). That government sometimes fails to counter such power adequately does not mean it is not the best, and I would argue only, way the people have any hope of remaining more than serfs.

        • 15 votes
        #2.22 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:55 PM EST
        stew.pidbeatch

        Phill W

        Bill Clinton got rid of Glass–Steagall that got us in this financial mess in the first place.

        I love it when 30 years of political wrangling can be so eloquently summarized in one sentence.

        Phil - I hate to break it to you, but you can't wholesale blame one man for the financial mess. While the repeal of some provisions in the Glass-Steagall bill when the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act was signed into law ended up being one of the most significant changes to banking reform - (and should be re-instated) there's a couple points you failed to mention:

        1) Clinton did not "get rid of" Glass-Steagall. He signed a bill that repealed some provisions of it. If you did just a little research, you'd know that FDIC insurance was a provision of Glass-Steagall. That was not "gotten rid of"; the bill was not "got rid of".

        2) The bill that repealed portions of Glass-Steagall - The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act - was actually authored and ushered through the Senate and House by three Republican congressmen

        3) There has been a whole series of legislation previous-and-subsequent-to The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act that contributed to the mess as well. This isn't accounting for actions by lenders, actions by borrowers, and global forces that were outside the realm of the legislative bodies, that accounted for the mess.

        While Clinton can "take the blame" for the ill effects of the repeal in 2011 because he was the President that signed the bill in 1999 (and I don't deny he should be blamed) - you need to judge based on the time, and facts that presented themselves at that time. Glass-Steagall was initially made a law in 1933 - a different time, when different market forces were in place. It was felt that certain provisions of this bill were holding US banking companies to a level of compliance their counterparts in other countries were not. It was thought that this would "level the playing field" a bit. I am a firm believer that the provisions repealed *should* be re-instated, but I'm not going to say "Bill Clinton wrecked the economy by singing one bill."

        Second - what Clinton did was compromise. As President, he wanted to get some stuff passed and some GOP guys wanted to get something passed. Your comment almost implies compromise is a bad thing. Knowing what we do now we can say - yes the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act was some bad legislation. But, in my opinion, the process by which the bill got signed is one of the few instances in recent political history where the political system "worked".

        It wasn't a bunch of partisan rhetoric and legislating on the extremes that we're experiencing now. @!$%# - I'd take another Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act if it meant the two groups pissing away our time and money would actually freaking *work* to get *something* done. And for what it's worth - I'd take Bill Clinton as Prez over *any* of the candidates that any party will be putting up in the next election.

        • 21 votes
        #2.23 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:13 PM EST
        Jonathan-1917156

        Glass Steagall (the restrictions on integration of banks) actually made it impossible for US banks to comply with BASEL II obligations. Considering the level of integration of the US economy into global affairs, that pretty much made BASEL II useless (in reality it isn't, but the antiquated structure of the US banking system makes it largely ineffectual.

        At least in Canada, the regulators said, you have US assets, well they can't have any leverage whatsoever on those assets.

        • 4 votes
        #2.24 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:25 PM EST
        genevieveva

        Thank you for the article and I enjoyed the replies. Refreshing to know that I am not the only one that is asking where has the Republican party has gone. Why are they so devoted to Wall Street bias? I miss the old Republican party that was willing to work with others.

        • 4 votes
        #2.25 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:40 PM EST
        tbart
        • The repeal of Glass-Steagall was one of those brain spasms that was almost certain to have deleterious consequences, and that is surely how it has turned out. The repeal was dreamed up by a Republican congress and sold heavily enough so as to be veto-proof. Should Clinton have vetoed anyway? Perhaps, but it is usually not wise to pick a fight that you have zero chance of winning.
        • Dennis in WA - You are totally on the spot about the Constitution. Most of the Baggers and/or Libertarians would be much happier living under the Articles of Confederation. Luckily the folks running the show in 1789 recognized that a diverse country such as the USA needed a strong federal government. Those who think otherwise should maybe be looking a lot more closely at the EuroMess.
        • We need to recognize that the de-regulation nonsense that played such a role in the economic collapse is still a prime article of faith for the Republicans. Mortgage-based securities anyone?
        • 5 votes
        #2.26 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:03 PM EST
        Jonathan-1917156

        The repeal of Glass-Steagall was actually something that the international banking community had been pushing for for many decades because the US banking industry is so fragmented that it makes it extremely difficult to gauge the longer term solvency of a bank.

        now the deregulation of the derivatives market that was part of that bill, THAT was about as brain damaged as you can get.

        • 3 votes
        #2.27 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:08 PM EST
        Dennis in WA

        I think a very important distinction needs to be made when discussing repeal of Glass/Steagel, or Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac. There is an enormous disconnect between what the Republicans would have us believe versus the reality of what happened in the financial collapse.

        The government (thru regulatory repeal and lax enforcement of existing regulations) and Fannie/Freddie, which are distinct from the government - they're private, for profit entities (thru poor enforcement of underwriting standards) did was FAIL TO PREVENT the economic collapse, by failing to prevent the players in the mortgage backed securities casino from making stupid decisions. They did not CAUSE the problem in the slightest - they were not forcing any one to make bad loans, they simply failed to prevent them from first doing so.

        Then these private entities (totally unrelated to the government) thru their own ideas regarding securitization and the creation of new derivitives / credit default swaps / massive leverage compounded the underlying problem of their making of bad loans by trying to hide them and simultaneously overleveraging themselves to generate more fee income. securitization/derivitatives markets.

        No government policy (or policy of Fannie/Freddie) FORCED any of these actions. They were purely the cause of the private sector trying to make a buck. (Don't give me that CRA line of BS - CRA loans were an infinitessimal portion of mortgage lending, and CRA loans performed far, far better than non-CRA subprime loans).

        That is the CAUSE of the meltdown - the only thing the government did was fail to prevent the private sector from doing what it wanted, and the Republican policy seems to be to make sure that the government CANNOT regulate the financial system, by trying to blame something that was not the cause for the collapse.

        • 3 votes
        #2.28 - Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:53 PM EST
        Jonathan-1917156

        dennis,

        the securitization itself though isn't really a problem. It only becomes a problem when you either ignore or don't understand what is inside those securities that have the securitized assets. There were many problems with what happened, partly it was the spreading of risk to so many entities along with a lack of understanding of the domino effect that is inherent when you do that, but also there was the mislabeling of various assets within those mortgage backed securities. The derivatives in question are priced according to the rating of those assets, and so on.

        From a regulatory standpoint, the inability of authorities to slow the bubble down, because hey, we can't stop 'growth' now can we, who cares if it is unwarranted growth, made the problem MUCH worse, because instead of a 2% bubble burst, we had a 40% bubble burst.

        (Having reread that, I think we are saying the same thing, just from different vantage points, as I was working in the financial industry during this time)

        • 1 vote
        #2.29 - Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:01 PM EST
        Reply
        jfxgillis

        reds:

        Over the past two decades, conservatism has evolved from a political philosophy into a market segment. An industry has grown up to serve that segment—and its stars have become the true thought leaders of the conservative world.

        I think that's actually the most important element of Frum's case.

        • 29 votes
        Reply#3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:10 AM EST
        redsfan

        I agree, jfxgillis...and that's why the Republican Party has stopped serving "the people" or "the 99%" or whatever you want to call them.

        • 20 votes
        #3.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:31 PM EST
        Paying Attention

        Another important part of the article:

        “This was my I won’t soon forget the lupine smile that played about the lips of the leader of one prominent conservative institution as he told me, �Our donors truly think the apocalypse has arrived.� Yet conscious cynicism is much rarer than you might suppose. Few of us have the self-knowledge and emotional discipline to say one thing while meaning another. If we say something often enough, we come to believe it. We don’t usually delude others until after we have first deluded ourselves.”

        This and other thoughts confirmed by former GOP operative Mike Lofgren in the following article.

        http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-reflections-gop-operative-who-left-cult/1314907779

        • 4 votes
        #3.2 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:54 AM EST
        itstoolate

        So the GOP in Washington are the Riders of the Apocalypse? Makes sense.

        • 3 votes
        #3.3 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:23 AM EST
        Reply
        Tyler Durden-330839

        9/12/01

        Dorme Bene.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#4 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:30 AM EST
        kj031056-1

        When Did the GOP Lose Touch With Reality?

        I think it was around 1980.....

        • 27 votes
        Reply#5 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 AM EST
        gg-1680962

        kj-

        1980 is when the Republican Party devolved into a reactionary Hollywood fantasy and lost total touch with reality. If you go back further, the election of 1964 for example (yes, I'm old enough to remember), the Republican's grip on reality has always been, at best, tentative.

        • 20 votes
        #5.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:48 AM EST
        Jake319

        "Morning in America"

        Or

        "Moaning in America "

        • 3 votes
        #5.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:53 PM EST
        GIL-2076580

        Kay, I remember warm pink snow from fallout in the late 50s. Eisenhower would wait until the winds blew NE from area 51 when he authorized the above ground nuke tests. He ordered many young men in the military to well within the nuke's effect to see what would happen to them. My home town (Not Madison) was subjected to the highest Strontium 90 fallout in the country (this information was made available through the Freedom of Information Act from the department of energy in the early 90s). Then, there was his riding on horseback, swinging his saber, into a peaceful camp of WWI veterans and their families in a 1933 attack on the "Bonus Army."

        Yes, the 50s and 60s in America were some of the best years for the families of this country, but Eisenhower (a Republican) was really a cold blooded, hard hearted president for these and many more of his cruel actions. I see the beginning of the hateful selfishness of the Republican party as beginning with him. Then, you're right, Reagan was the next one to continue this hatred of the labor unions and the working class.

        • 5 votes
        #5.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:55 PM EST
        Reply
        SuperSaiyan

        This is a good question to ask...

        • 11 votes
        Reply#6 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:38 AM EST
        QuiteContrary-1278233

        And also: Just how far they will stray before their own faithful are forced to say "Now wait one darned minute and hold it right there..."? Reality must intrude, if only for a brief glimmering moment for some of them, statistically speaking that is.

        • 9 votes
        #6.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:51 AM EST
        redsfan

        their own faithful

        I agree...and I have to believe that there are still sensible conservatives out there...but either they are being brainwashing by right-wing media to believe something that's not true, or they are just not paying attention to what is happening to their party.

        • 10 votes
        #6.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:33 PM EST
        Jake319

        I think there is push back by the right wing in terms of policy or lack of policy. Will it matter though?

        The republican party has created a coalition of very different priorities. Each one in the coalition demands their priority be addressed. The conservatives resist any governance that does not serve the collations priorities. Morally, fiscally about anything that would help the whole . Even themselves...

        • 4 votes
        #6.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:03 PM EST
        DerryGirl

        redsfan: I agree...and I have to believe that there are still sensible conservatives out there...but either they are being brainwashing by right-wing media to believe something that's not true, or they are just not paying attention to what is happening to their party.

        Or, like Frum indicated, they are afraid of the back-lash from their fellow TEApublicans and would rather let 'rabid' dogs lie:

        For the past half-dozen years, I have been arguing that we conservatives need to follow a different course. And it is this argument that has led so many of my friends to demand, sometimes bemusedly, sometimes angrily, “What the hell happened to you?”

        • 3 votes
        #6.4 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:06 AM EST
        Reply
        Phill W

        When did the GOP lose touch with reality?

        About the same time the Democrat party did.

        Right around the time when they all became puppets of the criminal private bank for profit called the Federal Reserve.

          #7 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:50 AM EST
          Naughtia

          lol
          the federal reserve turns it's profits over to the treasury.

          The Fed will return about $45 billion to the U.S. Treasury for 2009, according to calculations by The Washington Post based on public documents. That reflects the highest earnings in the 96-year history of the central bank. The Fed, unlike most government agencies, funds itself from its own operations and returns its profits to the Treasury.

          the parties are hardly the same, it is true the dems havent been awesome for the poor and middle class, but they sure as @!$%# havent been republicans.

          and yeah you need to stop freaking over the fed, learn some reality about the fed,a nd while it isnt the best thing in the world and probably could use some changes.Having congress or the "free market" set interest rates is exactly the wrong thing to do. Congress could never get it done in time and parties would use the interest rate politically to hurt presidents of the opposite party. as for the free market, it works the opposite of what is needed during recessions. Interest rates should be through the roof but they arent, this is because the market doesnt set rates.

          • 13 votes
          #7.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:13 PM EST
          Phill W

          $45 billion? You think that is the Fed Reserve's profit for 2009? hahahahahah

          You better add a crap load of zeros to that number.

          • 3 votes
          #7.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:19 PM EST
          Brian-497171

          Interest rates should be through the roof but they arent, this is because the market doesnt set rates.

          Exactly. The free market is not free - and that is a good thing!

          If we let suicide banksters truly run our markets, price fluctuations for commodities would be insane (much more so than now), and interest rates would fly out of control.

          This libertarian "kill 'em all" approach is not the answer.

          • 17 votes
          #7.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:33 PM EST
          Phill W

          sorry, Brian but you are wrong.

          Fractional banking, etc is what destroyed the world's economy. Its all a big ponzy scheme. Its Bernie Madoff times a zillion.

          • 2 votes
          #7.4 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:39 PM EST
          redsfan

          I've never understood the Republican hate for the Federal Reserve...but here's some information on it...

          Some of the recent criticism of the Fed stems from the 2008 financial crisis and its aftermath, when the bank was forced to take extraordinary measures to help stabilize financial markets.

          The bank made special loans, cut key interest rates and worked closely with the Treasury Department to backstop large financial institutions.

          That role has opened Bernanke and company to complaints from candidates who view the Fed's actions as suspect. But not everybody is buying what the candidates are selling.

          "It's inaccurate to suggest the Federal Reserve acted in a political manner during the economic crisis" said Steve Bartlett, CEO of the Financial Services Roundtable and a former Republican congressman from Texas. "They've acted in a transparent way and fulfilled their statutory responsibilities.

          Federal Reserve: GOP's Whipping Boy

          And then there's the fact that the Republicans do not want, under any circumstances, for the Federal Reserve to do anything to help our economy...

          GOP Leaders Write Unprecedented Letter Urging The Federal Reserve To Keep Unemployment High

          • 16 votes
          #7.5 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:42 PM EST
          Phill W

          Its the job of Congress to control the nation's money. Not a private bank. (The Federal Reserve is no more a part of government than FedEx is)

          Why hasn't the Federal Reserve ever been audited?

          This is a great movie to check out when you get a chance:

          video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

          • 2 votes
          #7.6 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:54 PM EST
          Gedde

          Phill W

          Its the job of Congress to control the nation's money. Not a private bank. (The Federal Reserve is no more a part of government than FedEx is)

          And it is completely within the purview of Congress to establish entities upon which to delegate day-to-day activities or responsibilities.

          And Congress could dissolve the Federal Reserve if it so desired, but it could not do so to FedEx.

          • 12 votes
          #7.7 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:01 PM EST
          Phill W

          Congress has no say over their banking masters. Neither does the president.

          • 3 votes
          #7.8 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:06 PM EST
          Gedde

          Phill W

          Congress has no say over their banking masters. Neither does the president.

          Saying so doesn't make it true. The Fed has been granted a certain autonomy, but it is not absolute.

          • 15 votes
          #7.9 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:12 PM EST
          redsfan

          Here's some good information about the Federal Reserve...sounds like their ability to influence the stock and bond market might be the main reason big business Republicans don't like them...

          The Fed operates independently of the U.S. government and its decisions do not have to be approved by the President or any branch of the government. The Fed, though, gets its power from Congress and must testify to Congress periodically. The government also receives any profits the Fed may earn, although making money is not the goal of the Fed.

          The Fed’s mandate isn’t to make money, but rather, to “provide the nation with a safe, flexible, and stable monetary and financial system.” That’s why when the economy appears to be short-circuiting, investors look to the Fed to use its power to either spur the economy or to cool it down when things get overheated.

          It’s pretty common for investors and economists to praise, criticize, condemn or otherwise comment on the actions of the Fed. After all, just a whisper that the Fed might look to increase short-term interest rates, for instance, could send the stock market falling. Again, while the Fed cannot directly change long-term interest rates, it can tweak money supply and have a huge sway on short-term interest rates. And such an awesome power gives the Fed the influence to move the stock market, adjusting the values of investor’s 401(k) balances, pension plans and college savings plans.

          What exactly does the Federal Reserve do, anyway?

          • 12 votes
          #7.10 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:29 PM EST
          Phill W

          youtube.com/watch?v=3QkmLnNEvdU

          youtube.com/watch?v=oOpQkRsEfaU

          youtube.com/watch?v=n0NYBTkE1yQ

          youtube.com/watch?v=AidBugvVqpw&feature=related

          youtube.com/watch?v=-hhPvas-Q8Y

          youtube.com/watch?v=nAID6lxd7jE&feature=related

          • 1 vote
          #7.11 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:43 PM EST
          Gedde

          Phill W

          youtube.com/watch?v=3QkmLnNEvdU

          youtube.com/watch?v=oOpQkRsEfaU

          youtube.com/watch?v=n0NYBTkE1yQ

          youtube.com/watch?v=AidBugvVqpw&feature=related

          youtube.com/watch?v=-hhPvas-Q8Y

          youtube.com/watch?v=nAID6lxd7jE&feature=related

          What do you imagine we are going to do with this? Follow all of these links? Sit through the inevitable bull@!$%# and smack our forehead with our palms while exclaiming "of course!"?

          This is the laziest form of "debate" and it accomplishes nothing.

          • 17 votes
          #7.12 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:53 PM EST
          Phill W

          Gedde, don't let facts and logic get in the way of your love of socialism and big government.

          Talk about lazy, it would really tire you out to go and look at proof.

          Would you feel better if I typed in what they said so you could just sit there in your mom's basement and read what was said?

          • 1 vote
          #7.13 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:58 PM EST
          redsfan

          Please no name-calling...be respectful as per the COH.

          Phill W...it would help if you would link to (or quote) some articles from respected authors or publications that support your point...your links may be valuable for people who have time to watch them, but videos that take comments out of context, or provide snippets of an interview or testimony can often be misleading.

          • 11 votes
          #7.14 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:05 PM EST
          Gedde

          Phill W

          Talk about lazy, it would really tire you out to go and look at proof.

          Yes, frankly, that kind of ordeal is exhausting.

          There is an entire cadre of posters here on Newsvine that think going to the trouble of creating a video on youtube expressing an opinion about something somehow elevates it from opinion and extrapolation into fact.

          I do not. I especially will not wade through half a dozen of them trying to figure out which one of your unsupportable assertions they're meant to try to buttress. It's your job to make your arguments.

          If you me to make them for you, you've already lost.

          • 15 votes
          #7.15 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:11 PM EST
          QuiteContrary-1278233

          The youtube op/ed crowd function solely under the aegis of 'obfuscation makes for truth if repeated often enough' since it works so well for the right-wing, hate-mongering radio-celebrity set!

          • 8 votes
          #7.16 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:09 PM EST
          QuiteContrary-1278233

          I've never understood the Republican hate for the Federal Reserve...

          Nearest as I can figure redsfan, it's because they cannot control it to suit their base purpose or further their propaganda machine without vilifying it. What they cannot master (like unions) they must utterly destroy.

          • 6 votes
          #7.17 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:45 PM EST
          tbart

          Phil - What you and the rest of of WildEyes ought to maybe contemplate is the Euro mess, a real-life example of a system with strong state autonomy [are you listening Ron Paul? Naw, I didn't think so.......] and a weak central bank. The result is weak states such as Alabama Greece having the ability to blow off all encouragement toward getiting themselves together until the system is at real risk of breaking apart. Ron P might secretly love it if Texas became autonomous, but to the rest of us it is a real poor option.

          • 3 votes
          #7.18 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:26 PM EST
          Jonathan-1917156

          tabart

          Well there are differences, but they don't disprove what I believe is your point.

          In the US, the states themselves are hindered because they are forbidden in most of them (by their state constitutions) from running a deficit. In europe, there is a treaty obligation to not run deficits larger than 3% of their GDP, but exactly how are you going to enforce that?

          • 2 votes
          #7.19 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:33 PM EST
          Reply
          JackOL-1666973

          I believe it was during the Clinton administration when they focused on one thing, bringing down a Democratic President. It has simply gotten progressively worse as time has gone by.

          I miss the days when there were center-right/moderate Republicans you could actually work and compromise with.

          • 17 votes
          Reply#8 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:54 AM EST
          Boatrocker

          True enough, and Clinton was white! We can only imnagine the boiling vitriol of wingnuts, now that America has elected a'colored' president!

          • 13 votes
          #8.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:00 PM EST
          Memory-800098

          Bulls-eye Jackol, I can not count how many moderate republican friends of mine who claim to be independent now but in fact have voted democratic since Clinton. It's so frustrating that the new era of conservatives refuse to compromise. Polls scream that Americans are pleading for both parties to compromise and yet it seems only the left are willing to do so. President Obama has been negligent to compromise more than his base has liked. I am confident that he has learned the one sided compromise has failed. I support our president and give him praise for trying to unite the country, but the Right simply want to control the country and are stuck on tax cuts for the wealthy.

          • 18 votes
          #8.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:49 PM EST
          redsfan

          I support our president and give him praise for trying to unite the country, but the Right simply want to control the country and are stuck on tax cuts for the wealthy.

          So true...and as long as "tax cuts for the wealthy" is their number one party platform, they will continue to lose more and more of the 99%.

          • 15 votes
          #8.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:01 PM EST
          Reply
          Pat P11111

          The Republican party has lost touch with reality. Just watch the debates.

          While both parties have been captured by the big money the democrats still try to govern.

          The republicans have turned into zealots for whom ideology is the only important point worth considering.

          • 16 votes
          Reply#9 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:59 AM EST
          Naughtia

          I'll agree with that. If we didnt have a gop, the dems would be some might fascist people but compared to the GOP the dems look almost like they work for the people.

          • 8 votes
          #9.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:14 PM EST
          Reply
          Rick_Parry_Sux

          The Greedy Old Party lost touch with reality when they got the dead Hollywood actor elected to the Presidency--it has been all downhill for the USA since 1980. Thanks GOP for effing up the American economy for the next century!

          • 19 votes
          Reply#10 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:00 PM EST
          Jackie-355788

          Especially when you start looking at the data and graphs.

          • 4 votes
          #10.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:10 PM EST
          Reply
          Brian-497171

          Supply-side (Voodoo) economics birthed our current, massive, income divide. It marginalized the average worker and sensationalised the executive.

          I would count that as when the GOP lost touch with reality.

          • 19 votes
          Reply#11 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:07 PM EST
          ww-2194637

          Yep you can trace it all back to Reagan, and the Reagan Dems who resented Affirmative Action.

          • 4 votes
          #11.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:24 PM EST
          Reply
          Phill W

          Seven of the Top Ten Wealthiest Members of Congress Are Democrats

          pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/11/15/seven-of-the-top-ten-wealthiest-members-of-congress-are-democrats/

            #12 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:22 PM EST
            BobbyG-420766

            Phill,

            Which means what???

            • 17 votes
            #12.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:49 PM EST
            QuiteContrary-1278233

            Really Phil? I thought your party was of the "It's their money, they made it and they can spend it as they darn well please" mindset- or does that only apply to the GOP faithful?

            • 10 votes
            #12.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:04 PM EST
            Phill W

            It means all this talk about Republicans being the "rich fat cats" is a bunch of B.S.

            We have a two party dictatorship with a continuity of agenda with only small differences between the two.

            theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/12-facts-about-money-and-congress-that-are-so-outrageous-that-it-is-hard-to-believe-that-they-are-actually-true

            endoftheamericandream.com/archives/10-mind-blowing-facts-which-show-how-members-of-congress-and-federal-employees-are-living-the-high-life-at-our-expense

            www.infowars.com/how-can-the-american-people-ever-trust-congress-again-after-learning-of-the-rampant-insider-trading-that-has-been-going-on/

            Republican/Democrat

            Left/Right

            Coke/Pepsi

            McDonald's/Burger King

            Its the False Left-Right Political Paradigm

              #12.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:04 PM EST
              Phill W

              And what is my party?

                #12.4 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:08 PM EST
                QuiteContrary-1278233

                Right Phil, like there were soooooo many GOP millionaires up there on Capitol Hill demanding higher tax assessments for their ilk last week. If you want an accurate headcount- not a one was a Republican! By the way, do you hate all millionaires, or just Democratic ones?

                • 13 votes
                #12.5 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:17 PM EST
                not over it

                It means all this talk about Republicans being the "rich fat cats" is a bunch of B.S.

                The difference being the Democrat 'fat cats' are willing to vote to raise taxes on themselves.

                • 20 votes
                #12.6 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:26 PM EST
                redsfan

                I am well aware that there are many very wealthy Democrats...John Kerry is one of them. What makes them different from very wealthy Republicans is that most big-money Democrats still support policies and laws that protect the poor and middle-class...they work for ALL the people in the country, not just the rich and powerful. The Kennedys were a prime example of that...extremely wealthy liberals who fought for justice and equality for the under-privileged and poor.

                • 18 votes
                #12.7 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:31 PM EST
                QuiteContrary-1278233

                Near as I can tell Phil, you must be a member of the "I-Hate-Democrats-And-Especially-That-President-Of-Yours-Beyond-All-Rational-Reason Party, y'all are really easy to spot ya know!

                • 12 votes
                #12.8 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:37 PM EST
                Phill W

                Members of Congress get elected to fatten their bank accounts, not act as public servants. They are not our leaders they are our servants.

                The reason I linked this article is to let the left know their people are just as corrupt as the other side of the isle.

                I have no problem with millionaires and billionaires. That's who own the industries and corporations who create jobs and grow the economy. What I do hate is this two party dictatorship. And yes, I do hate Obama but I also hate Bush. They are both banker puppets.

                What do politicians create besides higher taxes and obstruction to growth?

                The problem is all you Democrat supporters and you Republican supporters who think your party is without fault and the other one is never right.

                Wake up people.

                • 1 vote
                #12.9 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:52 PM EST
                redsfan

                I think we are awake, Phill...but we have two choices...

                1. Work with the system as it is - if so, we must support the Democratic party because they are the only party who, at least sometimes, fights for ALL Americans instead of just the wealthy and powerful.

                2. Change the system - as I said above, let's get big money out of politics...which is one of the main complaints of the OWS movement as I understand it. Let's do major campaign finance reform, let's overturn "Citizens United". And let's support the only major party who is willing to work toward those things...the Democratic party.

                • 16 votes
                #12.10 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:09 PM EST
                QuiteContrary-1278233

                Correct redsfan, and standing around whining that 'they're all crooks, so throw the baby out with the bathwater'- the idea du jour from all competing GOP candidates this week in their Norquist-induced vision of 'smaller' government- is so very counterproductive. By the way Phil, don't you think that perhaps 'hate' is too strong a sentiment concerning something as nebulous as American politics? After all, the music does stop every 2 to 6 years (depending upon job description) and some politician-type folks simply lose their chairs, pick up their toys and go home!

                • 7 votes
                #12.11 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:34 PM EST
                Phill W

                Vote Libertarian so we can save the Republic.

                  #12.12 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:37 PM EST
                  QuiteContrary-1278233

                  Libertarians are simply anarchists in sheep's clothing, I have never heard such selfish, self-serving and self-involved tripe as I've heard from the wild-eyed Randians! No matter one's religious affiliation (or lack thereof) common human decency is totally lacking in any/all of their manifesto!

                  • 12 votes
                  #12.13 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:46 PM EST
                  Michelle-485481

                  Liberatiarian? I love this country too much to let libertarians ruin it even more!

                  • 13 votes
                  #12.14 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:12 PM EST
                  Awed and Amazed

                  Libertarians need to learn that freedom is not an unlimited resource. Freedom in civilized society requires balance not everyone doing what they want, when they want, how they want, however they can...that leads to "[anarchy in disguise]," as QuiteContrary put it.

                  • 5 votes
                  #12.15 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:58 PM EST
                  Gedde

                  Everyone is a Libertarian until the neighbor installs a Cyanide leach pit right over the fence from your child's sandbox.

                  • 7 votes
                  #12.16 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:00 PM EST
                  Phill W

                  Good point Gedde. That happens all the time.

                  • 2 votes
                  #12.17 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:01 PM EST
                  Gedde

                  Of course it doesn't. But it does point to the practical weakness of Libertarianism. Two people can often agree on a boundary for personal space, rights, whatever. Ten people is much more difficult. Five hundred and it's impossible.

                  If you ever need proof of this, join the Parent Teacher Organization at your local school.

                  • 5 votes
                  #12.18 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:36 PM EST
                  Jonathan-1917156

                  gedde

                  Hmmmm was that you that complained about my cyanide leach pit? You bastard /sarc

                  • 4 votes
                  #12.19 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:39 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Gedde

                  But the thought leaders on talk radio and Fox do more than shape opinion. Backed by their own wing of the book-publishing industry and supported by think tanks that increasingly function as public-relations agencies, conservatives have built a whole alternative knowledge system, with its own facts, its own history, its own laws of economics. Outside this alternative reality, the United States is a country dominated by a strong Christian religiosity. Within it, Christians are a persecuted minority. Outside the system, President Obama—whatever his policy ­errors—is a figure of imposing intellect and dignity. Within the system, he’s a pitiful nothing, unable to speak without a teleprompter, an affirmative-action ­phony doomed to inevitable defeat. Outside the system, social scientists worry that the U.S. is hardening into one of the most rigid class societies in the Western world, in which the children of the poor have less chance of escape than in France, Germany, or even England. Inside the system, the U.S. remains (to borrow the words of Senator Marco Rubio) “the only place in the world where it doesn’t matter who your parents were or where you came from.”

                  In my view, the most compelling observations, and the root of all of his other assertions. Well done, Mr. Frum.

                  The RINO that dances with Elephants.

                  • 13 votes
                  Reply#13 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:28 PM EST
                  redsfan

                  Backed by their own wing of the book-publishing industry and supported by think tanks that increasingly function as public-relations agencies, conservatives have built a whole alternative knowledge system, with its own facts, its own history, its own laws of economics.

                  It is so true! And I'm surprised Frum had the courage to call out his own party (and it's extraordinarily successful lying echo chamber) like this.

                  • 15 votes
                  #13.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:44 PM EST
                  Reply
                  scott9876

                  1980

                  • 10 votes
                  Reply#14 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:28 PM EST
                  bse1963

                  When they started taking seriously Libiterians and the Religious Right.

                  • 8 votes
                  Reply#15 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:01 PM EST
                  QuiteContrary-1278233

                  Ah bse1963, pandering to is just not quite the same thing as taking them seriously, they perceive them as a serious threat and/or valuable asset, but privately sneer at their core beliefs as either ludicrously simplistic or simplistically ludicrous!

                  • 6 votes
                  #15.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:08 PM EST
                  bse1963

                  But there current belief du jour is a mainstay of Libiterian Norquist. I agree they may have perceived them as a serious threat, but it looks like the canary eat the cat.

                  • 4 votes
                  #15.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:21 PM EST
                  QuiteContrary-1278233

                  Norquist is the love child of Ayn Rand and Ron Paul- pass it on!

                  • 11 votes
                  #15.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:40 PM EST
                  Reply
                  itstoolate

                  They lost touch when they signed the Norquist pledge, this supersedes their oath of office. They have forgotten the people, but remember the money. Sanity has taken a back seat to talk show hosts and news reporters that make a living from fabricating the truth.

                  • 12 votes
                  Reply#16 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:19 PM EST
                  redsfan

                  I'll never forget my shock when I first found out about the Norquist pledge and how many Republicans had signed it. I am surprised there has been more shock and outrage in this country over that pledge. Just as a regular American, I am dismayed that an elected representative of any party would sign such a pledge.

                  • 10 votes
                  #16.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:33 PM EST
                  Janice Hairston

                  ittoolate, agreed and the grover will be their downfall. They also seem to forget that there are poor Republicans who rely on the same programs they are so hot in the butt to do away with. Sending a friend request.

                  • 9 votes
                  #16.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:39 PM EST
                  Jackie-355788

                  Grover will be the Republicans " Waterloo"

                  • 10 votes
                  #16.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:49 PM EST
                  itstoolate

                  He is a very dangerous man and he is holding the gun/pledge to the heads of the GOP/TP. Therefore he is holding us all hostage.

                  • 10 votes
                  #16.4 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:49 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Jackie-355788

                  When they decided to focus on defeating Obama instead of focusing on the huge problems that their previous Republican administration has put the country through. As though they lost their minds totally and they have some power now but have turned and focused on all the wrong issues and avoiding the real ones. This Congress was sent there to produce jobs not all the other side shows including the deficit because before you attack that you need jobs. They should be voted out Congress for bait and switch politics as they are going to do with Walker in Minnisota .

                  • 8 votes
                  Reply#17 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:40 PM EST
                  redsfan

                  focused on all the wrong issues and avoiding the real ones.

                  Yes...and that is what really, really bothers me. We have real problems in this country and we need to focus on them and cut out the crap.

                  I just realized I sound like a line from the movie 'The American President'...remember this?

                  We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle-aged, middle-class, middle-income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values and character....

                  • 10 votes
                  #17.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:57 PM EST
                  Reply
                  chitownty

                  The Republicans started to lose it when they dumped on old man Bush after he cut a deal with the Dems and allowed some raise in taxes.

                  • 6 votes
                  Reply#18 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:41 PM EST
                  Stochastic8

                  As an independent that would consider a Republican candidate Frum's article expresses all the reasons why I would no longer associate myself with this new breed (maybe old breed now with media coverage) of right wing lunacy.

                  This isn’t conservatism; it’s a going-out-of-business sale for the baby-boom generation.

                  This one point is the origin of the new right wing lunacy. The baby boomer generation grew up in a fairly homogeneous America. During a time of relative prosperity. And now that gays aren't in the closet and that the demographics are changing considerably, with a black President being the punctuation of that point, these elements come together to create easy scapegoats to blame for the degradation of America. Blame the poor for the economic crisis, blame the illegals for the loss of jobs and blame the foreigners for terrorism.

                  To put it bluntly, the baby-boomers have seen the world, thus America, changing faster than they can intellectually handle. So their thinking goes from cerebrum to the cerebellum, with mindless screeds that are similar to animals marking their territory.

                  • 10 votes
                  Reply#19 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:49 PM EST
                  redsfan

                  During a time of relative prosperity. And now that gays aren't in the closet and that the demographics are changing considerably, with a black President being the punctuation of that point, these elements come together to create easy scapegoats to blame for the degradation of America. Blame the poor for the economic crisis, blame the illegals for the loss of jobs and blame the foreigners for terrorism.

                  Very wise comment, Stochastic8...and I think you're right. It gets to the source of the discomfort with President Obama, the anger over the economic problems, the fear after 9/11.

                  I am a baby boomer, though and I wonder why I am not as afraid of this time of change as so many others seem to be...what makes me different?

                  • 7 votes
                  #19.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:59 PM EST
                  Stochastic8

                  I am a baby boomer, though and I wonder why I am not as afraid of this time of change as so many others seem to be...what makes me different?

                  First, I try not to generalize to a population, my direction of the comment was towards conservative Baby Boomers.

                  Second, my best guess would be the factor of intellectual curiosity and moral relativism. From what I've noticed those that hold the view that the world and thus it's people should be unchanging and held to strict and unwavering standards tend to view the world from the perspective previously mentioned. That is not to say that only conservatives behold this view though, being conservative tends to infer this. Those that are more curious and contemplative appear more open, accepting and willing to change with a rapidly changing world.

                  Maybe I'm wrong, it's a working theory.

                  • 9 votes
                  #19.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:38 PM EST
                  redsfan

                  Thanks Stochastic, for your views. I didn't really expect you to know what makes me different...you've have to understand my entire life history for that! :)

                  But I do agree that "intellectual curiosity and moral relativism" are key components in the discussion. I read a lot, listen a lot, wonder "why" about a lot of things, I am curious about other cultures, societies....that helps.

                  • 8 votes
                  #19.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:19 PM EST
                  Stochastic8

                  Well, I wouldn't presume to "know" anybody on NV.

                  There is nothing that exemplifies this more than global warming denialism. The prospect of realizing that what we have been doing for years, releasing GHG's, something that wasn't an issue when the baby boomers were growing up could turn into a catastrophic problem for their grandchildren is far too much for some people to bear.

                  It is the unwillingness for some conservatives to accept that rapidly changing world and the ability to project the deleterious changes onto others that is at the heart of this radicalization/lunacy.

                  Apparently some have not heard nor do not heed the warming, "we have found the enemy and he is us". They appear willing to announce the US is the greatest nation, (God given of course but that's another subject for another time) and with that announcement fail to acknowledge that the US, its people, its businesses and its government, did create the financial crisis, are luring illegal immigrants, does have policies that make other countries hate us and are the largest contributor of global warming than any other nation.

                  • 6 votes
                  #19.4 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:54 PM EST
                  Reply
                  TheyreAllCrooks

                  When Did the GOP Lose Touch With Reality?

                  Many, many moons ago. I'd say when Goldwater showed up - the GOP has tilted more and more to the extreme right every since. One more tilt and they'll all be peering over the edge of the earth!

                  • 7 votes
                  Reply#20 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:49 PM EST
                  jpokergman

                  When They Printed the headline...."DEWEY WINS!!!!"

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#21 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:50 PM EST
                  billybantha

                  If there were ANY Republican candidates who openly agreed with even half the points in Frum's article, I would respectfully listen to them. What if Gingrich actually admitted that most of the tenets of ObamaCare originated with Republicans? Or if Romney finally admitted in public that Massachusetts Health Care and ObamaCare are practically Siamese twins? I can definitely understand why Frum is getting the cold shoulder from Fox News.

                  • 8 votes
                  Reply#22 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:55 PM EST
                  redsfan

                  Me too, billybantha. It's almost like it's become forbidden to even acknowledge reality...where these policies originally came from, why they are important. It seems sometimes that Republicans won't even acknowledge what the problem IS, much less the correct solution.

                  • 7 votes
                  #22.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:01 PM EST
                  TheyreAllCrooks

                  What if Gingrich actually admitted that most of the tenets of ObamaCare originated with Republicans?

                  I had this conversation with a GOP friend of mine and she swears that the GOP never pushed this idea - even though we all know they did beginning back when they shot down HillaryCare.

                  Pretty funny that their own ideas are - Socialist!

                  • 8 votes
                  #22.2 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:03 PM EST
                  redsfan

                  she swears that the GOP never pushed this idea

                  It's the re-writing of history....or ignorance of history. I saw a quote the other day that nailed this. And it's why we need a strong public education system in this country...one which doesn't push aside the social sciences (like history) in favor of math and science.

                  “If you don't know history, it is as if you were born yesterday.”
                  ― Howard Zinn


                  • 7 votes
                  #22.3 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:12 PM EST
                  QuiteContrary-1278233

                  Let's not forget Gingrich's brand new plan to turn our public education system into the GOP equivalent of a pay-for-play workhouse, scrapping all child labor laws in the process. Everyone practice it together now: "Please Sir, may I have some more" (Brit accent optional, but you will get extra points for the attempt!)

                  • 6 votes
                  #22.4 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:51 PM EST
                  redsfan

                  Did you hear that Gingrich now is promising to teach courses "when he's president"...oh wow!

                  • 6 votes
                  #22.5 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:06 PM EST
                  TheyreAllCrooks

                  Yeah, his first class will be "How to scam Fannie Mae for $2 MILLION then blame the housing crisis on Barney Franks"...

                  • 6 votes
                  #22.6 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:24 PM EST
                  QuiteContrary-1278233

                  His most popular course is called: "How to devise a lobbying plan, with all pertinent contact info and personnel bios contained therein; but it's not really lobbying unless you drop the dime yourself" full credit applies if you get someone else to write your final paper for you!

                  • 3 votes
                  #22.7 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:05 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Jackie-355788

                  You go from the most productive Congress lead by Nancy Pelosi to the least competent worse Congress on record. What does this tell you? Teapublicans are in serous trouble. Why do you think the more qualified Republicans are not in the race? They don't want to be associated with the crazies and the incompetency. They really need to do some soul searching and I know that there needs to be a legitimate third party to keep the other two parties in check. If the Republicans can't get it together there will be a third party.

                  • 6 votes
                  Reply#23 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:03 PM EST
                  Mike in Delray

                  Most productive for Nancy's bank account you must mean....A little of that "legal" Congressional Insider Trading ?????

                  "While the rest of us have been languishing in what seems like a never-ending recession, one of top San Francisco lawmakers just keeps getting richer.

                  Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi's (D-San Francisco) personal wealth grew by 62 percent over the last year, making her one of the richest politicians on Capitol Hill.

                  According to Washington news outlets, Pelosi is now worth some $35 million as of 2010, up from her net worth of $21 million in 2009. Pelosi reported $43.4 million in assets and about $8.2 million in liabilities.

                  To put that into context, House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) is worth a measly $2.1 million.

                  So how is it that this wealthy pol keeps getting wealthier while unemployment remains at a staggering high? It seems the Minority House Speaker's husband, Paul, got lucky with some rising stocks and real estate investments that are paying off.

                  According to media outlets, Apple stock owned by her husband rose from $500,000 in 2009 to $1 million in 2010. He also invested more money in Matthews International Capital Management, which reportedly jumped from being worth $1 million in 2009 to $5 million in 2010. His other real estate investments in Sacramento also shot up to $5 million, according to The Hill.

                  Meanwhile, more than 2.5 million Californians, including Pelosi's constituents, don't have enough money to buy food.

                  http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2011/06/nancy_pelosis_wealth.php

                    #23.1 - Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:11 AM EST
                    Reply
                    RobPlumley

                    You have to look at outcomes only to determine what's the best direction for this country. At the upstart of the Bush Administration the CBO project 5.8 trillion dollars in surplus, and once we left, the estimate was 6 trillion in deficit - an eleven trillion dollar swing.

                    I agree with GOP, the GOP has lost their marbles!

                    • 5 votes
                    Reply#24 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:04 PM EST
                    john-482021

                    My guess is that Ike was the last sane republican to be president. Maybe the last sane president from either party. Common sense is gone in politics now. I like Obama but he can't do anything because of the corporate lobbyists controlling so many of the congress and senate. Obama seems like a common sense man sometimes, but then he puts out a stupid stimulus bill for insurance companies and banks, neither of which should even exist in the first place. The GOP lost contact with reality completely when Cheney and Rumsfeld took charge of the party in the late 70's or early 80's. Since then, tax cuts for the wealthy has been their main goal and to hell with the poor and middle class. Invading countries like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan and supporting Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein is not sane. The long line of fake christian cult leaders making GOP policy is also an insult to our country. When only wealthy people can run for political office, what do you expect? No chance for real people who have worked a day in their life to get into politics.

                    • 5 votes
                    Reply#25 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:07 PM EST
                    canary-in-the-coal-mine

                    Tricky dick was SANE but ULTRA DEVIOUS

                    • 5 votes
                    #25.1 - Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:24 PM EST
                    Reply
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